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American Bulldog Message Board
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attitude
Hot Dog
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 220
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 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Bully Rascalz wrote: | | attitude wrote: | bring in the NWDA and i will be there cuz ....abs are a working breed. i dont suggest you wait to long to call keith tho as he is a bizzzzzeeee man and once he is book you are s.o.l
imho most people are to lazy to work AND show their dog, hell most are to lazy to even show em, much easier to just breed |
Yes, I knew you were gonna say that about Keith! I will call him tonight! Thanks for the advice, just wanted to make sure the date was alright first. I am 10months in advance, I think we will be ok, he doesnt have a 2010 schedule up yet...
We'd love to have you and izzy come kick some butt!  Please make sure to invite anyone you think would benefit from this event! Even if its just to watch cause thats how I got interested. Sometimes its very overwhelming and you need someone to guide you and explain the steps. I found Keith and Monique super helpful and friendly it would be great to have you there getting other people interested in your sport. Im gonna invite Phil to come too! |
schedule may not be up but he already has dates planned n it fills up quick. if the NWDA is coming i have working people that will be there as well |
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greatbull
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Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 657
Location: Mascouche, Quebec
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildline Bullies wrote: | | greatbull wrote: |
Working abilities is what for you? For me, it is what the dog needs to be ggod in his head and his mind... That is pretty it... You know, having 15 kids around a dog that is scared is very dangerous... 15 kids around a dog that is calm and good in his head is awesome... and THAT is real situation, in real life... For me, be good in his head means a lot, and if your dogs never do nothing else then stay on your couch, you will never know what he is having in mind... Nothing to do with Sch...
Greatbull
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I agree with you there. Many wouldnt call that "Work" though. i have a therapy certified AB. She is around sick kids and old people ALL the time. Any situation, she is great. Thats a real situation, but thats not doing anything that an extreme bulldog cant do. Its work for my bulldog but to the "working crew" it isnt. Thats what i have been told by members of this group. Im just using their own arguement. |
Thay all have their argument, that is correct... I did have some discussion with some, and closed some doors with others... I don't really care about what others think, that is why i am pretty much quiet everywere now... What i putted there is not really ''work'' but, it shows what a sound dog should be able to do...
Putting a dog under stress and pressure is not always including any sort of violence but it is mostly put a dog in a situation were it will have to get a reaction... and it is from the reaction that we will be able to judge a bit of what he is made of... It is a lucky thing that it is not everybody that are doing bite work with their dogs because there is a very few trainers out there that are really competent to built a dog without drive them into a mean machine... Leslie said that just a very few people are working their Bulldogs... I'll say more then that... Very few people work dogs... Period...
Greatbull |
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da family of bulldogs
Havanese
Joined: 28 Sep 2009
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR TRUE STANDARD AMERICAN BULLDOGS
DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND CONTACT MFB KENNELS (MARGENTINA FAMILY BULLDOGS) THEY DO HAVE SOME LITTER AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC
LOOK AT WWW.MARGENTINA.WEBS.COM
OR LOOK AT ALLEN SCOTTS WEBSITE (ROCK'S MIKEY OF AS)
MARGENTINA HAS BEEN BREEDING AB SINCE HE WAS 16 YEARS OLD
OWNER AND HANDLER OF SGT. ROCK
CONTACT NUMBER 815-301-7419 |
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greatbull
Moderator
Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 657
Location: Mascouche, Quebec
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| da family of bulldogs wrote: | IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR TRUE STANDARD AMERICAN BULLDOGS
DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND CONTACT MFB KENNELS (MARGENTINA FAMILY BULLDOGS) THEY DO HAVE SOME LITTER AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC
LOOK AT WWW.MARGENTINA.WEBS.COM
OR LOOK AT ALLEN SCOTTS WEBSITE (ROCK'S MIKEY OF AS)
MARGENTINA HAS BEEN BREEDING AB SINCE HE WAS 16 YEARS OLD
OWNER AND HANDLER OF SGT. ROCK
CONTACT NUMBER 815-301-7419 |
I know Alan quite a bit... Saw most of the dogs he is having on his yard and i know a bit of what he is doing with his dogs... Tell me now what kind of work margentina is doing with his...
Greatbull |
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Lisa M
Hot Dog
Joined: 15 Jan 2009
Posts: 1194
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| Bully Rascalz wrote: | The working aspect of the American Bulldog has always been a great debate.
I had pitbulls before, at some point I even had both at the same time. I was hoping to focus on Ab's because I knew the general public couldnt handle the responsibilty of owning such a powerful breed and was getting really fed up with the types of people it would attract. I still back then made my dogs work, in my own way of course , weightpulling,protection and obedience. I could tell the benefits it brought each dog as far as its well being.
It has taken me years to get to where im at with the Ab's and I still feel so far. I always have to remind myself why I love this particular breed in order not to stray from my goals.
Ive never thought to myself....hmmmm I love this breed cause they do protection sport.
I thought wow this is an awesome loyal companion that can do it all. They have a phenomenal on/off switch and a tremendous will to please, a dog with alot of heart, a crazy fun drive and a comical side to them as well that I really enjoy. They are tough enough for me to wrestle with yet gentle enough to cuddle up with. They have a natural guarding ability that to me is a job, its nice if they all would defend but sometimes all you need is a deterent, not to many people will call their bluff!
It all goes down to the root of the breed which was mostly used for boar hunting , guarding farms from unwelcomed animals and home guardians.
Shutzund and ring are awesome sports but they were not developped with bulldogs in mind. I think its great that we have Iron dog and NWDA to step in and make working sports that are more easily attainable because lets face it the dog with the best score in shutzund is not necessarily the hardest American Bulldog and in reality if a real life situation occured that same dog may not defend you or your home because it was trained to bite a sleeve, yes of course some dogs would but lets face it...this is designed for sport. Does it have value in assessing a bulldogs temperament ...sure it does! Can it be trained and repeated so well that it can mask a dogs weekness? Yes it sure can! But is it better than doing nothing at all? Of course it is!
As a breeder I want to push my dogs, train them, exercise them and enjoy them. I dont think I need to achieve a Shutzund or ring title to prove they are a bulldog worthy of breeding but if I can, its icing on the cake! But I do think as an Ab breeder it is our responsibility to see to it that bulldogs remain bulldogs, I think we owe it to them to select strong individuals , with functional structure, healthy bodies, confident attitudes, good breathers and most of all strong minds that can cope with everyday situations. I have made some hard decisions myself in order to achieve these goals and im sure they're will be more to come.
I dont think breeders who keep their dogs kenneled up all the time know anything about what they are breeding. I like to see a breeder who take theyre dogs out to shows where you can see the dog handle himself in public around crowds. I like to see a breeder who enjoys exercising theyre dog: letting them out to run, hiking,taking them out to your local pet store to socialise, chase balls,drag weights, backpack. I like to see a breeder who takes pride in theyre dogs and enjoys spending time with them whether it be showing, pulling or protection sport.I like to see a breeder who cares about health and will spend that extra cash to put money where they're mouth is. Also like to see a breeder who has an Ab in the house as a pet, not all kennel dogs. How do you know the breeder is breeding for temperament if he cant even live in the house with one of his own dogs, just seems weird to me...
Please dont take this the wrong way, I think there is a place for everybody here and I have much respect for people who compete in sports, just think its not all there is to do. We try to do a bit of everything here at Bully Rascalz, which sometimes is our biggest problem because we have a hard time focusing on one thing lol! I enjoy doing weightpulling with the dogs at home, we go to dog training every sunday (currently working with Shady on obedience and bitework) Christy is working Zion every other sunday and during the week with Alan Cleland towards a Shutzund BH, im also training Mackenzy at home bymyself with a different training method, we show most of are dogs and above all WE HAVE FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Oh and our ABRA show WILL have real working events, so you guys who talk about working, nerves and function etc... BETTER SHOW UP!!!!!!  I think if you hold the shows to a better standard and people see the changes they will also appreciate the positive effects of a healthy, confident,functionning and better breathing bulldog, it will catch on the more people follow. People like Gilles need to attend more shows to promote your vision of what an american bulldog should be like, if we all stay at home and whine about the freaks, nothing will change
Sorry for the rant....  |
Julie...I think you are the only one who keeps mentioning Schutzhund and Ring Sports in this thread..... There are other avenues that test drives, nerves, confidence, determination, willingness to protect etc...the NWDA and Febab are good examples...even weight pulling will tell us more about our dogs than what we can learn about our couch potatoes...and of course hog catching will tell you quite a bit...wish we could do some of that around here! How awesome would that be?!?!?
I think it's great (and agree wi th you) that people do various things with their dogs....especially a breed like the AB that is supposed to be versatile! I personally am a member of a Sch club and for those that don't know the sport, it incorporates tracking, ob, and protection. I also dabble a little bit in weight pull and have trialed dogs under the WABA, NWDA and FedAb. I have even shown my dogs! I have also put my dogs through the CGC and other temperament tests...There are many venues we can test our dogs! The more we do with them, the more we know about them both good and bad! Good point Julie!! However, I would hope that the information obtained through working/trialing in various venues is used appropriately.....working our dogs is GREAT, but breeding them without paying attention to the strengths and weaknesses that have been exposed by doing so makes no sense. I am not directing this at anyone in particular but, how many people find out through training and/or trialing that their dogs are weak, yet breed them anyways? (they have been "worked" after all  ) . No dog is perfect, but sometimes their weaknesses far out weigh their strengths, and people should be honest with themselves about that. Working our dogs will benefit our breed only if we are all honest about what our dogs are capable of and what they aren't capable of. Just because a dog has been "worked" doesn't meant it's any good at it. Anyone can snap pictures of their dogs working; where they look decent, and slap them on their website... buyer beware..
I personally have washed dogs from breeding after spending a great deal of time (2 yrs or more) evaluating their health and temperament...not easy...
I do however would like to give a BIG +1 to the comments pertaining to a dog being able to handle day to day life. I have personally seen dogs that in drive look very good but out of drive can barely function because they are so easily stressed by every day life..... it's amazing how a dogs drive can get them through their weak nerves...how many dogs can't even travel with their families because they get car sick due to the stress of being in a vehicle and/or leaving their homes or what about those that can't have a solid crap or refuse food when traveling due to stress ? Some are only comfortable in their own backyards and around familiar people and fall apart otherwise..
I have taken my dogs to carnivals, parades, classic car shows etc. to see how they handled it.... places where there is a lot of stimulus....loud noises, strange people, strange looking objects (rides, game booths, clowns etc. ) These situations do not allow for their drive to bring them through any stress... a great way to see how solid your dog is. I do understand that no dog is perfect, but the only way to find out what you have at the end of your leash is by putting them into situations that will test it..that not only includes training and trialing, but different day to day situations as well. I agree 100% about that! That is a very good point! Titles aren't everything to me and I have, and will, overlook the fact a dog hasn't been "titled". But, they certainly need to be tested and be owned by people who are honest about the results and act accordingly when it comes to breeding..After all there are dogs which have never titled or even attempted a trial, that have been put through more than dogs who have titled at the higher levels...there are lots of things to consider when it comes to determining a good breeder.
This is a good thread! Lots of interesting input! |
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Bully Rascalz
Hot Dog
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 3100
Location: ONTARIO, CANADA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Ok yes ...I see what you're saying. I guess what im trying to say is you dont have to go overkill and attain a sport title, I agree that they're are other ways to test your dogs, like you mentionned taking your dog to a busy place and carnival can sometime tell you alot of what you need to know! Thats why I like to see breeders taking theyre dogs out of their environment, trust me I can recognize alot of things at a dog show....especially more so now that im looking for it
So I think what we agree on is that no matter how you choose to test your dog, whether it be Shutzhund, weightpull or everyday life you must be open to seeing the signs of a weak dog and you must be willing to cull from your program. Of course it will be harder for the sport person to find a dog but I think that a dog that cant even go threw everyday life is even more important to look at. Like you stated, I have also seen some dogs so hectic in the head and drivey that in a everyday situation it would be impossible for that dog to relax and just be a dog....I quite enjoy the apparent on/off switch of the average AB
But on the flip side I have also seen "show" dogs with very weak nerves that cant even be touched by the judge....unnaceptable
These are all things that are really hard to swallow for breeders when you have put all this time , money, effort into a dog. I to must wait 2 years before deciding if a dog is worthy of breeding so I understand the heartaches and disapointments we sometimes face...
Im glad this topic has stayed civil, always easier to learn when people are willing to listen and exchange ideas...
Lisa I think you should take Shady home! LMAO!!!!
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greatbull
Moderator
Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 657
Location: Mascouche, Quebec
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| Lisa M wrote: | | Bully Rascalz wrote: | The working aspect of the American Bulldog has always been a great debate.
I had pitbulls before, at some point I even had both at the same time. I was hoping to focus on Ab's because I knew the general public couldnt handle the responsibilty of owning such a powerful breed and was getting really fed up with the types of people it would attract. I still back then made my dogs work, in my own way of course , weightpulling,protection and obedience. I could tell the benefits it brought each dog as far as its well being.
It has taken me years to get to where im at with the Ab's and I still feel so far. I always have to remind myself why I love this particular breed in order not to stray from my goals.
Ive never thought to myself....hmmmm I love this breed cause they do protection sport.
I thought wow this is an awesome loyal companion that can do it all. They have a phenomenal on/off switch and a tremendous will to please, a dog with alot of heart, a crazy fun drive and a comical side to them as well that I really enjoy. They are tough enough for me to wrestle with yet gentle enough to cuddle up with. They have a natural guarding ability that to me is a job, its nice if they all would defend but sometimes all you need is a deterent, not to many people will call their bluff!
It all goes down to the root of the breed which was mostly used for boar hunting , guarding farms from unwelcomed animals and home guardians.
Shutzund and ring are awesome sports but they were not developped with bulldogs in mind. I think its great that we have Iron dog and NWDA to step in and make working sports that are more easily attainable because lets face it the dog with the best score in shutzund is not necessarily the hardest American Bulldog and in reality if a real life situation occured that same dog may not defend you or your home because it was trained to bite a sleeve, yes of course some dogs would but lets face it...this is designed for sport. Does it have value in assessing a bulldogs temperament ...sure it does! Can it be trained and repeated so well that it can mask a dogs weekness? Yes it sure can! But is it better than doing nothing at all? Of course it is!
As a breeder I want to push my dogs, train them, exercise them and enjoy them. I dont think I need to achieve a Shutzund or ring title to prove they are a bulldog worthy of breeding but if I can, its icing on the cake! But I do think as an Ab breeder it is our responsibility to see to it that bulldogs remain bulldogs, I think we owe it to them to select strong individuals , with functional structure, healthy bodies, confident attitudes, good breathers and most of all strong minds that can cope with everyday situations. I have made some hard decisions myself in order to achieve these goals and im sure they're will be more to come.
I dont think breeders who keep their dogs kenneled up all the time know anything about what they are breeding. I like to see a breeder who take theyre dogs out to shows where you can see the dog handle himself in public around crowds. I like to see a breeder who enjoys exercising theyre dog: letting them out to run, hiking,taking them out to your local pet store to socialise, chase balls,drag weights, backpack. I like to see a breeder who takes pride in theyre dogs and enjoys spending time with them whether it be showing, pulling or protection sport.I like to see a breeder who cares about health and will spend that extra cash to put money where they're mouth is. Also like to see a breeder who has an Ab in the house as a pet, not all kennel dogs. How do you know the breeder is breeding for temperament if he cant even live in the house with one of his own dogs, just seems weird to me...
Please dont take this the wrong way, I think there is a place for everybody here and I have much respect for people who compete in sports, just think its not all there is to do. We try to do a bit of everything here at Bully Rascalz, which sometimes is our biggest problem because we have a hard time focusing on one thing lol! I enjoy doing weightpulling with the dogs at home, we go to dog training every sunday (currently working with Shady on obedience and bitework) Christy is working Zion every other sunday and during the week with Alan Cleland towards a Shutzund BH, im also training Mackenzy at home bymyself with a different training method, we show most of are dogs and above all WE HAVE FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh and our ABRA show WILL have real working events, so you guys who talk about working, nerves and function etc... BETTER SHOW UP!!!!!! I think if you hold the shows to a better standard and people see the changes they will also appreciate the positive effects of a healthy, confident,functionning and better breathing bulldog, it will catch on the more people follow. People like Gilles need to attend more shows to promote your vision of what an american bulldog should be like, if we all stay at home and whine about the freaks, nothing will change
Sorry for the rant.... |
Julie...I think you are the only one who keeps mentioning Schutzhund and Ring Sports in this thread..... There are other avenues that test drives, nerves, confidence, determination, willingness to protect etc...the NWDA and Febab are good examples...even weight pulling will tell us more about our dogs than what we can learn about our couch potatoes...and of course hog catching will tell you quite a bit...wish we could do some of that around here! How awesome would that be?!?!?
I think it's great (and agree wi th you) that people do various things with their dogs....especially a breed like the AB that is supposed to be versatile! I personally am a member of a Sch club and for those that don't know the sport, it incorporates tracking, ob, and protection. I also dabble a little bit in weight pull and have trialed dogs under the WABA, NWDA and FedAb. I have even shown my dogs! I have also put my dogs through the CGC and other temperament tests...There are many venues we can test our dogs! The more we do with them, the more we know about them both good and bad! Good point Julie!! However, I would hope that the information obtained through working/trialing in various venues is used appropriately.....working our dogs is GREAT, but breeding them without paying attention to the strengths and weaknesses that have been exposed by doing so makes no sense. I am not directing this at anyone in particular but, how many people find out through training and/or trialing that their dogs are weak, yet breed them anyways? (they have been "worked" after all ) . No dog is perfect, but sometimes their weaknesses far out weigh their strengths, and people should be honest with themselves about that. Working our dogs will benefit our breed only if we are all honest about what our dogs are capable of and what they aren't capable of. Just because a dog has been "worked" doesn't meant it's any good at it. Anyone can snap pictures of their dogs working; where they look decent, and slap them on their website... buyer beware..
I personally have washed dogs from breeding after spending a great deal of time (2 yrs or more) evaluating their health and temperament...not easy...
I do however would like to give a BIG +1 to the comments pertaining to a dog being able to handle day to day life. I have personally seen dogs that in drive look very good but out of drive can barely function because they are so easily stressed by every day life..... it's amazing how a dogs drive can get them through their weak nerves...how many dogs can't even travel with their families because they get car sick due to the stress of being in a vehicle and/or leaving their homes or what about those that can't have a solid crap or refuse food when traveling due to stress ? Some are only comfortable in their own backyards and around familiar people and fall apart otherwise..
I have taken my dogs to carnivals, parades, classic car shows etc. to see how they handled it.... places where there is a lot of stimulus....loud noises, strange people, strange looking objects (rides, game booths, clowns etc. ) These situations do not allow for their drive to bring them through any stress... a great way to see how solid your dog is. I do understand that no dog is perfect, but the only way to find out what you have at the end of your leash is by putting them into situations that will test it..that not only includes training and trialing, but different day to day situations as well. I agree 100% about that! That is a very good point! Titles aren't everything to me and I have, and will, overlook the fact a dog hasn't been "titled". But, they certainly need to be tested and be owned by people who are honest about the results and act accordingly when it comes to breeding..After all there are dogs which have never titled or even attempted a trial, that have been put through more than dogs who have titled at the higher levels...there are lots of things to consider when it comes to determining a good breeder.
This is a good thread! Lots of interesting input! |
| Quote: | Ok yes ...I see what you're saying. I guess what im trying to say is you dont have to go overkill and attain a sport title, I agree that they're are other ways to test your dogs, like you mentionned taking your dog to a busy place and carnival can sometime tell you alot of what you need to know! Thats why I like to see breeders taking theyre dogs out of their environment, trust me I can recognize alot of things at a dog show....especially more so now that im looking for it
So I think what we agree on is that no matter how you choose to test your dog, whether it be Shutzhund, weightpull or everyday life you must be open to seeing the signs of a weak dog and you must be willing to cull from your program. Of course it will be harder for the sport person to find a dog but I think that a dog that cant even go threw everyday life is even more important to look at. Like you stated, I have also seen some dogs so hectic in the head and drivey that in a everyday situation it would be impossible for that dog to relax and just be a dog....I quite enjoy the apparent on/off switch of the average AB
But on the flip side I have also seen "show" dogs with very weak nerves that cant even be touched by the judge....unnaceptable
These are all things that are really hard to swallow for breeders when you have put all this time , money, effort into a dog. I to must wait 2 years before deciding if a dog is worthy of breeding so I understand the heartaches and disapointments we sometimes face...
Im glad this topic has stayed civil, always easier to learn when people are willing to listen and exchange ideas...
Lisa I think you should take Shady home! LMAO!!!! |
Damn... I think i'm in love... I know Julie i am not your type but Lisa? U free tonight? LMFAO!
Greatbull |
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Wildline Bullies
Hot Dog
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 658
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Bully Rascalz wrote: |
So I think what we agree on is that no matter how you choose to test your dog, whether it be Shutzhund, weightpull or everyday life you must be open to seeing the signs of a weak dog and you must be willing to cull from your program. |
| Bully Rascalz wrote: |
I dont think breeders who keep their dogs kenneled up all the time know anything about what they are breeding. I like to see a breeder who take theyre dogs out to shows where you can see the dog handle himself in public around crowds. I like to see a breeder who enjoys exercising theyre dog: letting them out to run, hiking,taking them out to your local pet store to socialise, chase balls,drag weights, backpack. I like to see a breeder who takes pride in theyre dogs and enjoys spending time with them whether it be showing, pulling or protection sport.I like to see a breeder who cares about health and will spend that extra cash to put money where they're mouth is. Also like to see a breeder who has an Ab in the house as a pet, not all kennel dogs. How do you know the breeder is breeding for temperament if he cant even live in the house with one of his own dogs, just seems weird to me...
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Definately agree here 100%. nice post. you said a lot but one thing that gets me is how so many of these "Awesome Producers" are hardly ever out of their kennels. No one has any idea what the dog is like except that it looks "bad ass" and thats not an attack on anyone in particular, just a pretty widespread problem.
I dont think i will ever have more than 4 dogs because then i wont "get to know them well enough" and i doubt i will ever have a house big enough to have 5 or more big dogs all be happy running around together. All of my dogs go to work with me, go everywhere with the family and it all starts very early.
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Last edited by Wildline Bullies on Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:39 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Wildline Bullies
Hot Dog
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 658
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Lisa M wrote: |
I personally have washed dogs from breeding after spending a great deal of time (2 yrs or more) evaluating their health and temperament...not easy...
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Lisa, do you evaluate other people's dogs (reagrding breed worthiness) for them ? How do they take it? I would imagine sometimes theyarent too happy if you have spent 2 years + working with their dog that they want to breed and then after that long tell them they shouldnt breed their dog.
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